桌長：
歡迎回到隔壁的桌子，我是桌長10。
台灣的一個網紅八炯，他發起了一場遊行叫做「守護台灣，拒絕統戰」。號召全台灣支持大罷免運動的台灣人一起來到凱達格蘭大道，表達我們反對共產黨侵略，反對國會裡的親共立委賣台法案的立場，一起堅定地守護台灣的民主自由。
那簡單來說呢，我們台灣人正在使用公民行動來罷免那些悖離民意破壞民主程序的國會議員。
我也在現場，然後看到很多很感動的畫面。
其中一個讓我印象特別深刻的畫面是，我看到一位烏克蘭的朋友，他手上拿了牌子，一邊寫著「相信我，我是烏克蘭人」，然後另外一邊寫著「失去自由只需一瞬，爭取自由需要一生」的標語。
那他旁邊的女生呢，手上只拿著另外一塊板子寫著「和平協議沒有和平，只有血腥鎮壓，國有器官，1949新疆，1951西藏，1997香港」。
他們是來自烏克蘭的Rudi，以及來自台灣的英綺。
今天我特別邀請了Rudi和英綺來到節目中分享他們當天為什麼選擇站出來，以及他們想對台灣人說什麼。
那麼歡迎Rudi跟英綺。
Welcome back to “NEXTABLE” I’m your host, 10.
On April 19, 2025 , a Taiwanese influencer named Pa Chiung organized a protest called “Defend Taiwan, Reject United Front.” He rallied people from all over Taiwan who support the recall movement to gather on Ketagalan Boulevard and express our stance against the Chinese Communist Party’s aggression and against pro-CCP legislators in our parliament who are pushing sell-out bills. Together, we stood firmly to defend Taiwan’s democracy and freedom.
We continue to pay close attention to this movement because it’s directly tied to the future of all of us.
Taiwanese citizens are taking civic action to recall members of parliament who have betrayed public opinion and undermined democratic procedures.
I was there at the rally too.
And I saw so many powerful, emotional scenes.
One that left a particularly deep impression on me was seeing a Ukrainian friend holding a sign. One side read, “Trust me, I’m Ukrainian,” and the other said, “Losing freedom takes only a moment; fighting for it takes a lifetime.”
Next to him was a Taiwanese woman holding a board that read:
“Peace treaties bring no peace, only bloody suppression. State-owned organs: 1949 Xinjiang, 1951 Tibet, 1997 Hong Kong.”
They are Rudi, who comes from Ukraine, and Ying-Chi, from Taiwan.
After I posted this image online, it received a huge response and resonated deeply with many people.
So today, I’ve invited Rudi and Ying-Chi to join us on the show to share why they chose to stand up that day, and what they want to say to the people of Taiwan.
Let’s welcome Rudi and Ying-Chi.
英綺：Hello
Rudi：
Hi，Everyone 大家好
桌長：
對，我可不可以先請你們簡單的自我介紹一下，然後可能可以跟我們說明一下，為什麼當天你會想要一起站出來？
Can I start by asking you both to briefly introduce yourselves?
And maybe you could also tell us why you decided to stand up and join the protest that day?
英綺：
基本上我會站出來是因為我本身對這個國家意識蠻敏感的，因為我覺得這是一個表達台灣人想法很重要的場合。
我們越多人站出來，就會讓世界知道說台灣其實是非常反對中國共產黨的。
所以那天不管怎麼樣，我本身都會出席。
那我邀請Rudi是因為他是烏克蘭人，所以我想我希望透過他的經驗，也許現場可以有更多的交流
透過他可以引起大家更多的共鳴，畢竟他就是一個歷史正在見證的人。
他是一個正在經歷這些我們可能如果沒有做好我們該做的防範的話，未來會需要面臨的一些問題或者是環境的一個人。
對，所以我才會邀請他那天要不要一起來出席。
Basically, the reason I decided to show up is because I’m quite sensitive to issues related to national identity. I believe this was a very important occasion for expressing how Taiwanese people truly feel.
The more people who stand up, the more the world will see that Taiwan strongly opposes the Chinese Communist Party.
So no matter what, I knew I was going to be there that day.
I invited Rudi because he’s from Ukraine, and I hoped that by sharing his experience, we could spark more conversations and connections at the event.
Through him, people might feel a deeper sense of resonance—after all, he is someone who is literally living through history.
He’s experiencing the kinds of crises and threats that we in Taiwan might also face in the future, if we don’t take the necessary precautions.
That’s why I invited him to join me that day.
Rudi：
I’ve heard that this protest is against the Chinese Communist Party and that it is to unite Taiwanese together to stand against the aggression that is coming from China.
So the message to me is extremely clear because after living in Taiwan for six years, after visiting Taiwan for many times before that, I know that Taiwan is in a very similar situation as Ukraine in terms of the fight for freedom, in terms of political situation as well.
Because, I will be honest, throughout six years I see that China is using exactly the same tactics that Russia did in Ukraine before the full scale invasion and before the war started in 2014.
It is exactly what is happening in Taiwan right now.
英綺：
基本上所以他知道那天的活動是反對中國共產黨的侵略，是一個台灣人會團結起來的一個活動。
那他覺得他在台灣生活六年以後，然後在來台灣之前，他也曾經來過台灣好幾次。
在這些經驗綜合起來，他看到現在台灣發生的事情，這跟烏克蘭在被全面侵略之前是非常的相似的，手法都一樣。
就是俄羅斯怎麼對烏克蘭做過事情，就是現在中國正在對台灣做的事情。
所以他覺得他需要站出來參與這個活動。
桌長：
那Rudi會選擇這個標語，一方面也是因為台灣現在情況可能讓他聯想到以前烏克蘭可能還沒有被侵略之前的狀況嘛。
那所以選擇這樣子的標語，然後同時參加這樣子的台灣民主運動，對他來講的個人意義是什麼？
So Rudi, part of the reason you chose that sign was probably because Taiwan’s current situation reminds you of what Ukraine went through before the invasion, right?
Could you share with us — what did choosing that slogan mean to you personally?
And what was it like for you to take part in this kind of democratic movement here in Taiwan?
Rudi：
The meaning for me is simple but complicated at the same time.
You know, Russia a dictatorship invaded Ukraine and does not let us live with our own freedom, with our own decisions.
They think that Ukraine belongs to them, which is not true.
Ukraine existed even before Russia ever founded.
So my home country is burning because of one dictatorship.
And even before the full scale invasion started I moved to Taiwan because I love this country.
I love this amazing nature, great society.
I work in the industry that I like very much and it starts in Taiwan.
And eventually Taiwan faces the same threat as my home country, of dictatorship that does not want anyone around it to be democratic.
Democracy is a threat to this dictatorship.
英綺：
這個意義對他來說是簡單的，可是當然背後的情感是很複雜的。
所有的狀況都是來自一個獨裁者，也就是普丁他個人的想法。
那俄羅斯一直以來都覺得烏克蘭是俄羅斯的一部分。
就跟中國一直覺得台灣是中國不可分割的一部分一樣。
然後就算烏克蘭的存在，其實是遠在俄羅斯出現之前，烏克蘭就已經存在了。
對，烏克蘭其實也是一個有幾千年歷史的一個地區。
那當然它中間有很多的變革，那這不在我們今天討論的範圍。
嗯，那Rudi 他是在2022年，就是俄羅斯全面侵略之前，因為他在這之前他來過台灣很多次。
他喜歡台灣這裡的自然美景啊，或是一些文化的東西。
尤其他對computer industry，就是電腦產業，他是熱愛，他是科技宅。
對，那所以這是為什麼他選擇來台灣。
但很不幸的，就是台灣現在也面臨的就是另外一個獨裁者的侵略這樣子。
桌長：
對，所以其實他是在所謂的現在大家所知道的俄烏戰爭發生之前，就已經來台灣工作跟生活了嘛，對不對？
Right, so actually he had already come to Taiwan to work and live before what we now know as the Russia–Ukraine war broke out, is that correct?
Rudi：
No, War started in 2014, but the full scale invasion like fully opened.
Yes, it happened in 2022.
And I arrived to Taiwan in 2019.
英綺：
那所以對他們來說，其實他覺得戰爭是2014年，就是克里米亞那時候被佔領的時候就已經開始了。
那當然是2022年俄羅斯是全面的侵略，那也是我們現在普遍知道所謂烏俄戰爭的起點。
那他是在2019年的時候來到台灣開始工作。
桌長：
那所以你們是怎麼認識的呢？
So how did you two meet?
英綺：
我們是Dating app，交友軟體。
Rudi：
There’s nothing much to share.
It’s just we met in a dating app.
It was Bumble I think. Right?
Yeah, it was Bumble.
So our first date was not like, to be honest, nothing special.
Just one different is 英綺, comparing other Taiwanese girls dated, she have very strong personality, very strong opinion about something.
And what I appreciated the most is that this opinion is not just there, it has a very strong background and logic underneath this opinion.
So it’s not like she just believes in something based on some theories she read online.
No, it’s like very clear in fact.
And this is something that made me feel okay…. to be honest.
You know, most of the first day we spent just talking, like not even eating, not drinking, just..
英綺： We had pizza! 我們有吃披薩！
Rudi：
Yeah but we talk the whole time.
Like it was difficult to shut up with you.
Like because it was so interesting.
英綺：
好，我自己翻譯這段有點害羞。
反正他說第一次跟我見面的時候，基本上大家應該都是透過交友軟體換第一次見面。
當然你就是互相認識嘛，所以你會聊聊天。
對，那他說他發現我跟其他之前約會過的台灣女生很不一樣。
就是我很有自己的主見。
確實這個在我的台灣的共同朋友之間也是，有共識的一個對我的印象。
然後他說，而且我的想法，就是我在表達我的想法的時候，並不是基於一個就是哦就是網路留言，然後我就隨便相信。
我是有一個脈絡在後面去支撐我的邏輯，就是我看事情的邏輯，去支撐我為什麼會這樣想，然後為什麼會這樣子去分享這些事情。
所以他就覺得跟我聊天很有趣。
桌長：
嗯，那英綺你覺得呢？就是跟烏克蘭人交往跟台灣人交往，有什麼感覺不太一樣的地方嗎？
Hmm, so Ying-Chi, what do you think?
Is there anything that feels different when dating a Ukrainian compared to dating someone from Taiwan?
英綺：
比起說台灣人跟烏克蘭人的比較，我覺得反而是，而且我的約會對象大部分都是歐洲人。
所以如果以歐洲人跟台灣男生來比的話，我覺得歐洲的男生他們比較擅長去聆聽。
然後他們也比較有自己的想法跟自己的生活。
就是他們的興趣很多元。
就是每個人他們都有一些自己熱愛的事情。
他會想要知道說，哦，他的想法是這樣，那你呢？
他會反過來問說，那我呢？
對，我的想法會是怎麼樣？
或者他可能對於我分享的事情，他沒有太多的涉略，但是他會根據我說的內容給予我一些回饋。
所以我覺得「互動性」可能是跟歐洲男生交往，還有跟台灣男生交往上面一個蠻大的不同。
再來就是我覺得歐洲男生普遍都蠻尊重女生的想法。
他不會去隨便judge。
就是他不會去隨便把你現在分享的東西去貼一個標籤上去。
然後他們也非常樂於去讚美你。
然後而且他們的讚美不是單純就是什麼哦，你好漂亮什麼的。
就是還有像他剛剛，我覺得剛剛就是一個很好的示範。
Rather than specifically comparing Taiwanese and Ukrainians, I’d say… most of the people I’ve dated have been European.
So if I were to compare European guys and Taiwanese guys, I think one big difference is that European men tend to be better at listening.
They also have more of their own ideas and lives — like, their interests are really diverse.
Each of them seems to have something they’re truly passionate about.
And they’ll want to know, “Oh, that’s what I think… but what about you?”
They’ll ask you back — like, what do you think?
Even if they don’t know much about the topic I’m sharing, they’ll still respond with something thoughtful based on what I said.
So I think this sense of interaction is one of the main differences I’ve felt when dating European guys compared to Taiwanese ones.
Also, I feel that European guys generally really respect a woman’s perspective.
They don’t just judge you or immediately put a label on what you say.
And they’re really generous with compliments too — but not just superficial ones like, “Oh, you’re pretty.”
Like just now — I think what he said earlier was actually a perfect example.
桌長：
對，就是他很具體地去講到你的人格特質什麼的，然後很精準地觀察。
Yeah, he really pointed out your personality in such a specific way — it felt like he saw right through you.
英綺：
對，我覺得這件事情會讓女生，至少對我來說會覺得，啊，你有觀察到這些細節。
你是在意我的。
這件事情就會覺得哦，就是會想要互相再多更認識一點。
Honestly, for girls — or at least for me — when someone notices those little things, it feels like they really care.
And that kind of attention makes you naturally want to connect more, to get to know each other better.
Rudi：
I guess at least those who are able to come to Taiwan to either travel or work here.
Let’s be honest, it’s not cheap.
You need to have certain skills to be able to do that.
So there’s also certain selection I believe in that way.
So that if, let’s say, I would go back to Ukraine I also can tell that unfortunately there are so many girls that just purely focus on how they look, not what they think.
So I guess it’s a similar situation.
英綺：
其實也沒錯。
就是有能力出來台灣工作或來台灣念書的人，其實他們就通常代表他們家一定⋯⋯
That’s actually true.
People who are able to come to Taiwan to work or study usually come from families that are at least somewhat…
桌長：有一點的經濟基礎。
Having some basic financial foundation.
英綺：對，或者是他本人有做了一些努力。
畢竟到一個完全異地生活是一件不是那麼容易的事情。
所以光是這一點他可能就已經篩選掉一些人。
所以他說的也對，就是其實在他們的國家，在烏克蘭境內也有很多女生，可能就是他在乎我自己漂不漂亮，然後可能不是對每件事情有那麼多的想法。
然後所以我覺得我同意這件事情。
就是我在台灣遇到外國人，他們可能已經是，他們畢竟已經是比那些沒有出來的人，有一個踏出….。
Yeah, or maybe it’s that the person has made some real effort.
After all, moving to and living in a completely foreign place is not an easy thing.
Just that alone probably already filters out a certain type of person.
He’s said before — even back in his own country, in Ukraine, there are a lot of women who mostly just care about looking pretty, and maybe don’t have that many thoughts or opinions about things.
And I think I agree with that.
Like, the foreigners I’ve met in Taiwan — the fact that they’ve already taken that step to live abroad,
that alone often means they’re already more open-minded or more proactive than those who never left their home country.
桌長：看過比較多東西這樣。
He’s had more experiences.
英綺：我不會說他們看過比較多東西，但我覺得至少他們已經有踏出這個舒適圈這一步。
所以我們在台灣遇到的外國人可能相對來說可能會有這些共通的特質。
但是回到他們國家，是不是有一些跟台灣我們平常遇到的一樣，可能就是比較不善表達，或者是有一些我們刻板印象的那種缺點，可能也是有的。
I wouldn’t necessarily say they’ve seen more of the world,
but at the very least, they’ve already taken that first step out of their comfort zone.
So the foreigners we meet here in Taiwan might tend to share certain traits because of that.
But if you go back to their home countries,
you might still find people who are more reserved, not so good at expressing themselves,
or who fit into some of the stereotypes we might have —
Those flaws or limitations probably still exist there too, just like we see in Taiwan.
桌長：
遇到他，有算是你第一次比較深入去了解烏克蘭這個國家的背景嗎？
So, would you say that meeting him was the first time you really started to understand Ukraine on a deeper level?
英綺：
在認識他以前，烏克蘭對我來說就是一個，就是它是一個好像很遠的國家。
我們會聽到烏克蘭大部分，在我認識他之前，大部分可能會是在什麼，就是你知道就是那些很厲害又很漂亮的表演者。
Before I met him, Ukraine to me was… well, it just felt like a really distant country.
Most of what I had heard about Ukraine before knowing him was, you know — like those really talented and beautiful performers.
桌長：對，表演者。Right, performers.
英綺：或六福村。Or… from an amusement park..like Leofoo Village.
桌長：對，真的 Yes, seriously!
英綺：之類的。
對，或者是可能我們服飾的model會是烏克蘭人。
要不然就是可能就瑞莎這樣子。
所以在認識他以前，其實烏克蘭就是哦就是印象很多漂亮的人這樣子，然後在台灣是很多是從事表演工作的。
Yeah, things like that.
Or maybe we’d see Ukrainian models in fashion catalogs.
Or someone like Larisa.
So before I met him, my impression of Ukraine was mostly that — a place where beautiful people come from, and in Taiwan, a lot of them seemed to work in the performance industry.
桌長：對 Right.
英綺：然後所以是認識Rudi以後，跟Rudi在一起以後才開始去有對烏克蘭可能有比較多的了解
So it was really after getting to know Rudi, and being with him, that I started to learn more about Ukraine, yeah.
桌長：
那所以其實Rudi的話，Rudi是知道共產黨的這些事情是認識你之後嗎？
還是說他在台灣的這幾年自己的觀察？
So for Rudi — was it through you that he came to understand all these things about the Communist Party?
Or was it more from his own observations during his years in Taiwan?
英綺：你說共產黨是指中國共產黨？You mean the Communist Party as in… the Chinese Communist Party?
桌長：對，中國共產黨對台灣的威脅。Yeah, the threat that the Chinese Communist Party poses to Taiwan.
Rudi：
No, no, no.
It’s more…I know about the threat from China to Taiwan.
I think almost right before I visited Taiwan for the first time.
Because before I moved to Taiwan 6 years ago, I visited Taiwan four times, once in a year.
One time in a year I was here for Computex computer exhibition. They are usually in Nangang.
One exhibition as well near 101.
So I used to come for this exhibition once a year for four years straight before I moved here.
And before my first visit I already knew this because I had to be careful in terms of how to open my visa to Taiwan.
For theoretically as a journalist, as a media as I was before, I can imagine I might need to go to China sometimes.
But if I open a visa to Taiwan in my passport, then China will never open me visa in the same passport.
They will forbid me.
桌長：oh, really?
Rudi：
I have friends who came to Taiwan before for a job and then they had to go to China for job as well, as media.
And they even went to China, but Chinese customs, they turned them back and sent them back to Ukraine.
So I knew about this issue.
So I actually had to open the second passport for traveling in Ukraine.
And I was thinking that okay, one passport I will use for Taiwan, one passport I will use for China if I ever have to go there for my job.
So from that moment I started realizing what’s the situation between China and Taiwan.
I started watching YouTube videos, reading some articles and yeah, I knew a little bit about the relationship between Taiwan and China before I came to Taiwan.
英綺：
他知道中國對台灣的威脅，大概是他第一次來台灣之前。
像剛剛其實已經有提過，他在來台灣定居工作之前，他其實很常因為電腦展關係來台灣。
那通常大概就是一年一次，然後他那時候連續四年來了四次這樣子。
那他會知道這個議題，或者說開始意識到這個議題，主要是因為他來台灣是需要申請簽證的。
然後以一個媒體來說，他知道他可能未來某一天會需要去中國，在那個時候。
但他從其他朋友的經驗知道，如果他的護照上曾經有台灣的簽證，中國是會拒發簽證給這個人的。
尤其他朋友的經驗是，他們都已經到中國了，然後但是就是在海關那邊被擋下來。
所以他從第一次要來台灣要開始申請簽證之前，他大概意識到有這個問題，開始認識到有這個問題的存在。
所以他那個時候，他們烏克蘭其實有兩本護照是很正常的。
我會請他稍微解釋一下為什麼他們會有兩本護照這件事情。
但他們烏克蘭人可以有兩本護照是正常的。
然後所以他就用一本護照申請台灣的簽證，另外一本護照就是為了未來假設他那時候需要去中國的話做的準備。
Rudi：
Yes.
So about the two passports.
Actually in Ukraine we have this system for a very long time because Ukraine was always between Asia and Europe.
So many countries that we are friendly with, for example Israel, Turkey, Egypt, those countries are quite important trade partners for Ukraine.
But if you would ever go to Israel for example, Egypt will never let you into their country.
And the same if you will ever go to Egypt, Israel will never let you in into Israel.
So Ukraine, knowing this issue, and that some citizens of Ukraine will be facing that, Ukraine is allowing for Ukrainians to have two passports for traveling.
So I can have two identical, like with biometric scanning chip inside, but those passports, they have their own different numbers of course, different dates from when they were issued.
And I can use those passports like in different countries.
So unfortunately a year ago I had to go to China for a business trip from my company.
So I brought one of my passports that does not have a Taiwanese visa.
英綺：
所以基本上他們會有兩本護照這件事情，是因為烏克蘭剛好位於亞洲跟歐洲之間嘛。
那因為他是屬於東歐國家，那所以當然也會跟亞洲的一些國家有一些所謂的，跟某一些國家是重要的國際關係夥伴。
是商業上或地緣政治上。
但同時大家也知道那一區有很多國家有一些衝突。
所以假設有一些烏克蘭的國民，他們要去埃及，那他們的護照上有以色列的紀錄的話，可能就沒辦法進入埃及了。
那同理就是如果有些人的護照上面有埃及的紀錄，以色列政府就不會再讓你進去。
所以烏克蘭政府意識到國民有這樣子的需求的狀況下，他們是允許每一個人有兩本護照的。
當然兩本護照上面的號碼是不一樣的。
嗯，那所以像他去年他，因為公事的關係，出差去中國，他就是拿另外一本護照去。
桌長：
他之前好像有提到說他去中國的經驗好像有一些不好。
所以他能夠分享一下說他在中國看到什麼，或者經歷到什麼，讓他對於中國共產黨可能有了更多的警戒或者是防備？
I think he mentioned before that he had some negative experiences during a trip to China.
So could he maybe share a bit about what he saw or went through there,
and what made him more cautious or wary of the Chinese Communist Party because of it?
Rudi：
Honestly, after my trip to China last year, I told my company, I will never go to China anymore.
It’s too dangerous for me.
Because my company, to be honest, they would need me to go there to visit the factory, to learn about manufacturing from one of our factories there.
But I told them that I really want to learn that, if we can do this somehow online or in Vietnam, in another factory that we have there, like I’m great with that, but not to go to China anymore.
When I went to China, I had two very risky situations and one extra situation that was just very uncomfortable.
英綺：
他去年去中國後，他就告訴他們公司說他絕對不要再去中國了。
雖然去中國的工廠，因為他們公司的工廠是設在中國，去工廠現場看他們的產品什麼的，對他的工作內容來說會有很大的幫助。
但他還是跟他的公司說，雖然他也很想做這件事情，他也知道這件事情對他的工作內容有幫助。
但他希望有機會的話，這件事情可以是在越南或者其他國家進行，就是不要再去中國。
Rudi：
For me to go to China, I had to open visa in Hong Kong first and then go from Hong Kong into China.
So I had to come to Hong Kong to apply for an emergent visa, which will be done in two days, and then I can go for my business trip.
But we all know that Hong Kong right now is fully under the CCP control right now as of recent events, in 2020, right? or 2019.
When I was entering Hong Kong, the Chinese customs, they took me out of the line.
When they were checking my passport, something went wrong.
They were checking my passport for very long time.
Then they called for the officer who took me out of the line to another separate area in the airport.
It was still the open area in airport, it was the same huge hall as the custom control, but this small area was specifically for I think some trouble people
And I stayed there for 1.5 hours, while they checked all my documents. They asked me where I’m going? why I’m going? showed them the reservations, showed them booking, my return flight, they even asked me why do I come from Taiwan and what do I do in Taiwan.
I’m sorry for that, this is like, I’m very shameful to say that, but I had to play Chinese game saying that, oh you know, I know, you know, Taiwan belongs to China, something like this.
Because I just don’t want to be, you know, put into jail right now.
Because once I’m there, they can do whatever they want with me.
They even asked me to show them my Taiwanese ARC, this is the permanent resident I have in Taiwan.
They even asked me to show my work permit, find in my cloud storage in my archives if I have this file somewhere online.
It went for one and a half hour like this.
So I missed my deadlines.
I missed to go to apply for visa and I just went straight to my hotel because it was so late already.
英綺：
因為台灣跟中國的特殊關係，他需要先去香港才能申請去中國的簽證。
他那時候去準備要去香港，入境香港的時候呢，我們講白話就是有被刁難。
然後他那時候，我們都知道就是香港現在2019年、2020年以後，基本上已經就是沒有所謂的一國兩制。
基本上現在就是中國的一部分。
那他那時候遇到的狀況就是，他排隊準備在香港入境，但是海關特別檢查他的護照。
然後檢查了很久。
然後最後就是把他叫到旁邊，雖然是一個公共空間，可是就是一個你知道你現在就是有麻煩的一個環境。
對，然後他在那邊被盤問了很多問題。
包含說，哦，你現在即將去哪裡？為什麼要去？
然後你為什麼是從台灣來？你在台灣是做什麼等等的。
然後甚至他已經提供了很多的文件給香港的海關，可是香港海關還是甚至要求出示他說，哦，你是真的有在台灣工作的證明等等。
那整個過程大概花了90分鐘，導致他後面的行程全部都大delay。
他沒辦法在他預計的時間去做簽證的流程。
然後他也就是miss掉一些原本跟公司說好的行程等等。
然後他剛剛有特別說他很抱歉，但他在那個時候為了讓自己脫險，所以他必須按照中國的遊戲規則走，所以他說了一些哦對啊，我知道台灣是中國一部分之類的這種話。
Rudi：
I asked them, “Why do you need all of these documents?”
I thought, you know, China, Taiwan is part of China.
So you supposed to have full access to all those documents when needed.
The officer still said that still needed to check them.
英綺：
所以他說他想要補充一個他覺得有點有趣的小小插曲。
就是因為他們不斷地要求他提供很多的身份證明文件，不管是工作上或者是個人上的。
但有一些文件他就是，他已經把他可以給的都給了。
然後有些文件他在他的雲端上面也沒有。
他就問海關說，嗯，可是我想說台灣是中國的一部分，你們不是應該就是可以看到這些資料嗎？
然後對方就只是很尷尬地說，嗯，我們還是需要看到這些文件。
Rudi：
Thank you.
Unfortunately, this situation was not the only issue I had with this trip.
I was also interrogated for one hour when I was going back from China.
But this time, they indeed took me into a small room, one-on-one.
So they were asking me the same questions, the same documents.
But this time it was in a closed space, which made me feel even more scared.
Inside of China, when I was there on business trip, I went to the small town called Guizhou（貴州） and there’s many factories there.
And when I was waiting for the elevator in my hotel, there’s something interesting happened that also scared me a lot.
I think I even called, yeah, I called Ying-chi, but I had to speak with her with coded message so she will understand that something happened.
When I was waiting for the elevator, some Chinese came to wait for the elevator in the hotel as well.
And he decided to ask me in English where I am from.
And I thought, I didn’t think much to be honest.
I just told him I’m from Ukraine because, you know, Taiwanes also ask me this question, I just don’t think about how to answer, so I just answer him.
And then we already came into the elevator.
It’s just only two of us.
Elevator closes.
And he said “Ukraine fascist.”
He called us a country fascist.
It’s a word used against, you know, Hitler Germany back in the time.
He called me a fascist there.
I stand there.
I had this in my head for ten or fifteen minutes, like, it just cannot be true that somebody would tell you this to your face.
It’s just, it’s ridiculous. How come?
But no matter how many situations I would try to model in my head, what he was trying to say, maybe he just made a mistake.
There’s just nothing else I can come up with, because after this, the conversation ended.
He did not want to say anything else to me, nothing. He just, he told me that “we are fascists”, that’s all. So when I had a call with 英綺 from the hotel room,
I told her, I just told her that, “Oh, China trip is so amazing,
I really love China so much, it’s so incredible, people are so nice, people tell me such amazing things about Ukraine, nobody listens to propaganda about Ukraine, everybody believes good things about Ukraine,
I really love China so much, so good.”
To be honest, I’m not sure if my room was listened or not, but, you know, having the access in China, even for a foreigner, I’m almost sure there are certain areas where they are trying to intercept our messages.
So, it was just ridiculous. After that, I’m not going to China at all. Like, never.
英綺：
所以很遺憾的，剛剛前面講的這個被在入境香港被盤查的故事，並不是單一事件。
他在準備從中國出境的時候也再次被盤查，而且這一次就是被帶到小房間去。
所以那一次他當然特別緊張，因為你就是完全隔離的。
那香港其實基本上就是問了全部所有的問題全部再問一次這樣子。
然後另外一件讓他對中國感到非常反感的事情是發生在當他在中國的貴州出差的時候。
那時候他在飯店準備搭電梯，然後就有一個中國人一起來搭電梯。
然後這個中國人就用英文問他說，你是哪裡來的啊？
然後他也沒有想太多，就直接回答烏克蘭人。
因為畢竟他在台灣或者世界各地，遇到外國人，問國籍是很正常的事。
結果他們進到電梯，電梯門關起來，整個小小的電梯就只剩他們兩個人。
然後那個中國人就說，啊，烏克蘭，法西斯。
然後中國人就再也沒有繼續跟他講任何話了。
但我們都知道法西斯是一個非常嚴重的指控。
這件事情發生後，他大概有10到15分鐘，一直在回想剛剛到底發生什麼事情。
就是怎麼會有個人指控烏克蘭是法西斯。
但他沒有辦法理解。
然後他決定打電話給我。
然後在電話裡面就講中國好話，中國好棒棒，中國最棒，中國最偉大，我好愛中國這樣子。
請幫我的信用評分加分這樣子。
對，那當然就是，我們不知道他們是不是真的有在監控或監聽。
可是這樣的事情就算只是偶發事件，這個偶發事件仍然會讓他感受到威脅。
所以這些背景讓他決定他再也不要去中國了。
桌長：
所以你收到他那個中國好棒棒的訊息的時候，你當下有立刻get到他要講什麼嗎？So when he sent you that whole “China is so great” kind of message, did you instantly catch what he really meant?
英綺：
他其實整趟在中國我都很緊張。
然後像他，他跟我說他被海關，就是我忘記那時候確切來說發生什麼事情。
但是我那時候緊張到去找我朋友。
就是我就哭著去找我朋友說怎麼辦，他在香港好像被海關刁難。
他會不會在中國遇到什麼危險之類的。
然後所以然後因為我知道，我認識他，他也知道我的立場什麼的。
所以當他跟我講那些話的時候，我知道，就是哦，這是為了明哲保身。
所以我不會特別就是覺得怎麼樣。
我就配合啊，我就說對啊，偉大的習主席，請帶我們再次榮耀中國。
Honestly, I was really anxious the whole time he was in China.
There was one point when he told me he had some trouble at customs — I don’t remember the exact details now,
but I was so worried I went to my friend in tears, saying,
“What should I do? He’s in Hong Kong and seems to be getting hassled by border officials. What if something bad happens to him in China?”
And because I know him — and he knows where I stand politically —
so when he sent me that message saying all those “China is amazing” things,
I immediately knew — ah, this is for self-protection.
So I didn’t take it the wrong way.
I just played along. I replied,
“Yes, great Chairman Xi, please lead us to restore the glory of China!”
桌長：很厲害很厲害，很機靈欸。That’s brilliant — so clever!
英綺：讓我們復興偉大的中華民族。Let us revive the great Chinese nation together.
桌長：
那所以以他現在對於中國共產黨的了解，還有相關的經驗以後，這個是不是也會讓他想到就是他們國家正在面臨的俄國的威脅，還有這兩個政權之間的相似之處，或者是對於這兩個國家的威脅或對待人民的方式的相似之處？
Now that he has a clearer view of the CCP and after going through those personal experiences,
does any of it echo what Ukraine is going through with Russia?
Does he feel there are parallels between how China and Russia behave — both toward other countries, and toward their own citizens?
Rudi：
Yeah, Communists are communists everywhere and they are the same.
Dictatorships, they are dictatorships everywhere and they are the same.
When I went to Russia as well, I will again, it was after 2014 after the war actually started.
I had to go for work to Russia couple of times.
And I didn’t feel safe there.
I see a quantity of cameras spying on you everywhere, even on the road.
In China, it’s even worse because every five minutes there is a picture of you like splashing your face when you’re in a car.
At least they don’t have this in Russia, but the number of cameras is scary.
Like one intersection can have 20 cameras and not pointing at cars.
No, they are pointing at people who are walking on the street.
If you go to the MRT or like a metro in Russia, you have to go through the metal detector that will scan you for guns, knives, bombs, and everything.
They said it’s against the terrorists.
But I mean, what kind of terrorists are there in Russia?
It’s only the government are the terrorists there.
So they are trying to keep the government safe from all of that.
Even the regular people, to be honest.
Because of common people in Russia, I was afraid to say I’m Ukrainian when I was in Russia.
And in my first trip, I said to someone I’m Ukrainian, I think I told to the taxi driver because I was going from the airport or to the airport.
And the taxi driver asked me where I’m from.
And I told him I’m Ukrainian.,
And after that, the whole trip, he was teaching me how I should live my life.
He was teaching me what kind of political views I need to have.
He was teaching me how bad our revolutions in Ukraine are and that we don’t need to stood up.
He was telling how great Russia is and that we need to be friends with Russia.
My future trips, I’m sorry, but I was saying that I’m from Belarus, because our accent in Russian is a little similar.
If I’m Belarus, everybody is perfectly fine with that, because Belarus is already, like, you know, Russian’s closest ally.”
英綺：
他說共產黨就是共產黨，不管在哪裡都一樣。
就是他們都是獨裁者。
2014年之後，他曾經去過俄羅斯。
那也是公事上需求。
那他其實也不止去俄羅斯一次，他去過很多次。
然後他在俄羅斯境內看到超多的攝影機。
然後這些攝影機並不是對著車子拍，是直接對著人。
然後一個馬路，一個十字路口可能就會有20台攝影機。
那當然在中國的狀況是更糟的。
就是隨時都在被監控的狀態。
然後像你去搭地鐵的時候，是要過安檢的。
其實這件事情我記得我在中國，我曾經也有去過中國。
然後我記得我在中國搭地鐵的時候，也是要過安檢。
就是我們那時候想說我現在是要搭飛機嗎？
桌長：對他們很多道安檢，很多地方。Yeah, they have security checks everywhere — in so many places.
英綺：
他們的安檢就是非常的嚴謹。
那當然他們的說法就是，我們要防止恐怖分子啊。
我們要檢查你沒有帶一些危險的物品啊，刀啊、小刀啊，或者是任何可能傷害別人的武器等等。
但就是，拜託你在跟誰開玩笑啊？
就是在俄羅斯那裡，哪來什麼恐怖分子？
然後他那時候第一次去俄羅斯的時候，可能他也沒有想那麼多。
所以當有人問他說，你哪裡人？
他就說我是烏克蘭人。
然後他還記得那是一個司機。
這個司機就開始跟他說，就是開始進行黨國教育。
就告訴你說，你烏克蘭應該要怎麼生活啊，烏克蘭是俄羅斯不可分割的一部分啊，應該要支持俄羅斯啊，俄羅斯多棒啊，你加入俄羅斯以後會有多少的好處。
然後因為這樣的經驗，他後來再去俄羅斯的時候，他就不會再說自己是烏克蘭人。
他會直接說自己是白俄羅斯人。
因為他可以模仿白俄羅斯的口音。
因為白俄羅斯相對烏克蘭，白俄羅斯基本上就是俄羅斯的一個省。
就是，如果有稍微去了解國際關係、國際政治的話，會知道白俄羅斯是非常親俄的。
雖然他們是兩個不一樣的國家。
所以他後來就說他是白俄羅斯來的。
那就再也沒有人跟他講過那些東西。
桌長：
我覺得這個經驗應該很多台灣人都有類似的共鳴之處。
雖然說他講的是烏克蘭跟俄國之間，我們其實也常常在這樣子的文攻武嚇之中。
尤其在如果跟對岸交流的時候，不小心遇到，在國外遇到他們的中國人民的時候
他們也都會常常用一種居高臨下的態度在提醒台灣人，你們是我們不可分割的一部分。
I think a lot of people in Taiwan can really resonate with that experience.
Even though he’s talking about Ukraine and Russia,
we often go through the same kind of psychological warfare and military intimidation.
Especially when we’re engaging with people from across the strait —
like when we meet Chinese nationals overseas —
they often take this condescending tone to remind Taiwanese people that “you are an inseparable part of China.”
Rudi：
I had a little similar experience when I went to Vietnam last year.
And I had a trip for one day in Vietnam and there were a lot of Chinese in a car.
And when they were writing the names, like what’s your name, where are you from, your age, so that they will keep track that they will not lose anyone during the trip.
I said, of course, like of course I said my name but as my country I told Taiwan.
And they were like, huh, Taiwan, you mean like China?
I’m saying no no, Taiwan.
And they like trying to write like Republic of China.
Like no no no, write it now, Taiwan.
Not ROC.
And not Ukraine.
I’m from Taiwan.
So after the trip, you know, some Chinese, they already heard my point very strongly.
Because I don’t think they speak English very well, but they heard that I’m fighting about this.
Nobody during the trip talked to me from those Chinese.
Nobody.
I talked to some other people from different countries, but Chinese never talked to me.
英綺：
對，他去年曾經有去越南旅遊。
然後他在越南的時候，就有剛剛類似我們台灣人遇到的經驗。
因為他有參加那種拼團旅行，導遊一開始就會收集大家的名字啊，問你從哪裡來啊，避免大家走散。
那個團裡面有很多是中國人。
然後輪到他的時候，他就說他的名字，然後說他從台灣來的。
那些中國人就看著他說，啊台灣，你是說中國嗎？
然後他說，沒有，是台灣。
然後導遊甚至想要寫Republic of China（ROC）。
他就說沒有，不是ROC，是台灣。
然後他說因為他有這樣的反應，所以這個行程裡，中國人基本上都沒有再跟他講話。
但其他國家的人就還是很開心跟他交流。
桌長：
Thank you, Rudi .thank you.
This heart is from Taiwan!
Rudi：Taiwan No.1.
桌長：
現在也很多人在講「今日烏克蘭，明日台灣」嘛。
所以其實烏克蘭跟俄國之間的關係和經驗，對於台灣來講是一個很重要的警示。
像之前在俄烏戰爭正式開打之前，也是在烏克蘭有很多親俄的政府官員，甚至是你們選的總統可能也是比較親俄的。
以你們自己的經驗來說，你們當時選擇親俄這件事情真的有幫助你們遠離戰爭嗎？
當然從今天來看就是沒有嘛。
但以你的經驗來講，你覺得台灣人應該怎麼樣去看待共產黨，或者是怎麼樣選擇跟他相處的方式？
These days, a lot of people are talking about the phrase:
“Today Ukraine, tomorrow Taiwan.”
So in that sense, Ukraine’s relationship and experience with Russia serves as a really important warning for Taiwan.
Before the full-scale invasion began, there were actually a lot of pro-Russian government officials in Ukraine —
even your president at the time was considered relatively pro-Russia.
So based on your experience, do you feel that choosing a pro-Russian position back then really helped Ukraine avoid war?
Of course, looking back now, we know the answer is no.
But from your perspective, what do you think people in Taiwan should understand about the Chinese Communist Party?
And how do you think we should approach the idea of how to deal with them?
Rudi：
I would say Ukraine was kind of divided back in the time, almost 50-50, in between those who support,
that’s the thing. In Ukraine everybody wanted to be as independent, where I think like 80% people wanted to be an independent Ukraine.
But where people were divided is one part wanted to be closer to Europe, to West and the United States, another part wanted to be closer to Russia,
because of the Russian propaganda for 100 years during the USSR and during the Tsar before that, that we are so close together.
But in fact, Russia is being an empire, so they’re using all countries around just as their imperial states, so they’re extracting the resources from there.
Some people understand that, that’s why my family, from the moment I was very little, my father was teaching me, like, Russia, there’s nothing good.
Learn history, read poems, learn stories, you need to know that whatever Russia was doing to us always is to kill us and ruin our identity.
Yes, certain countries from Europe, unfortunately, also tried to capture Ukraine, like Poland or Lithuania before.
Yes, they captured us, but they did not ruin our identity as much as Russians are doing that.
And we actually, unfortunately, it’s a very similar situation to Taiwan.
Japanese, they also had Taiwan for so many years, and, you know, the time was not great for Taiwan.
Taiwan lost a lot of good people that time, like a whole generation, they were not allowed to study in universities and have some high profession.
But at the same time, after Japan left Taiwan, you have so much more than comparing what you’ve got from KMT（國民黨）,
I’m sorry, but even going down when they came here, or when China was trying to have control over Taiwan.
It’s a totally different mindset. One mindset is to build an industry and strong state here, but take these resources back to Japan.
Another mindset is don’t build anything, but just take all the resources, period. None of them are good, but one of them is a little bit better.
英綺：
他的父母就是一直告訴他應該要正確的認識歷史。
你透過去讀故事啊，讀詩啊，或者是聽歌啊，不管怎麼樣，他的父母都希望他都要記得俄羅斯，一直以來就是希望摧毀烏克蘭的身份認同。
烏克蘭內部其實在他的感覺上有八成的人是希望獨立的。
雖然這樣，但在要跟哪些國家建立比較緊密的關係這件事情上面卻有一半一半。
就是有一半的人覺得我們應該要跟歐洲有更多的來往，但有另外一半的人會覺得我們應該要跟俄羅斯產生更緊密的關係。
這件事情其實跟台灣很類似，就是所謂的中華民國派跟台獨派，或者是親中派、親美派。
我相信其實從419的活動可以看到，不是所有支持、曾經支持國民黨的人都希望跟中國成為同一個國家。
那些所謂的中華民國派，有些人他們是很清楚視中國共產黨是一個敵對勢力。
所以這件事情其實跟台灣的狀況也蠻類似的。
他覺得像他父母就有告訴他說，沒錯，雖然也有其他的國家曾經侵略過我們或者佔領過我們，但他們都沒有做出像俄羅斯這樣的事情，就是俄羅斯是完全想要摧毀我們對自己身為烏克蘭人的認同。
他舉了日本殖民時期的例子，雖然我覺得這個例子不是很完美，因為其實日本也有在台灣實施皇民化運動，日本也希望大家講日文，不要講自己的語言。
可是確實我覺得他後面講的事情是正確的，就是一樣都是侵略政權。
好，我們先不說他是不是侵略，至少是佔領。
但一個是來，然後有做一些建設，有提供台灣人機會受教育，給予資源。
雖然那個資源可能沒有跟日本人一樣多，但是我們有，但有另外一個政權（國民黨）來到台灣就是只會竭盡所能的掠奪我們所擁有的東西，把我們分割開來。
他覺得當然兩個政權來佔領一個我們的地區，都不是一件好事，都不是值得鼓勵的行為。
但兩者相比之下，日本是好一點的，因為至少有留下一些建設性的東西給我們。
大概就是這樣。
對他們來說，在他們歷史裡面，也有類似這樣子的經驗。
Rudi：
Even after 2014, we had a very big division between.
Some people they still want to be closer with Russia.
Some they want to be closer with Europe.
And because those who want to be closer with Russia, they usually, to be honest, they usually have less resources.
They don’t have good education for them, or they don’t have as good education.
It was more difficult for them to actually have people to follow them and listen to them because many of their ideas are not based on logic,
but only on believing in propaganda.
So eventually those who want to be closer with Europe, they have more people, more voice, and it looks like Ukraine is finally moving closer to Europe.
And that’s the moment when putin and Russia, they’re realizing they’re losing Ukraine.
And the only one thing they can do is to take it with force.
After they tried to take Ukraine with force, so many people realized what’s going on.
I have an example from my family.
英綺：
所以就是2014年之後，克里米亞半島被俄羅斯佔領以後，
還是有很多人在歐洲跟俄羅斯之間掙扎，
到底要跟哪一邊比較靠攏。
在這件事情上面，大部分會希望，就是大部分比較親俄的人，
相對其他親歐洲的人來說，
可能是教育程度比較低，
然後社會資源比較沒有那麼多。
他們會選擇親俄，通常是根據他們接收到的那些謠言，
也就是我們所謂的認知作戰的一部分，
根據這些影片，然後去說我們應該要跟俄羅斯比較親近
但因為社會資源上的差距，
所以最後當然是親歐派比較有優勢。
所以也就是讓烏克蘭整體的狀況，
在那個當下是比較親歐的。
同時也是那個時刻，
讓普丁明白他們可能即將要失去烏克蘭了。
那既然文的不行，那就來武的。
所以他才決定要全面侵略烏克蘭。
Rudi：
So the part of the story I will tell you,
I will be honest, it will be difficult for me to tell,
but I still want to share the story because that was one of the worst periods in my life.
But very important, I think, for Taiwanese to know the experience and to know what they will need to expect.
Unfortunately, most of my family, they lived next to Kyiv, the capital.
They lived from the north part.
So when the full-scale invasion started,
Russia, they tried to push as fast as possible to Kyiv.
And my mom, my sisters, my aunt, my cousin,
they became under Russian occupation or right on the front line just in one day.
Part of my family got locked in their house.
Their house was receiving grenades.
House was partially damaged.
But this part of my family, they had to stay there because it was right at the front line next to Kyiv.
When my mom, she already was in Russian occupation,
she was behind the front line for some time.
And for the first weeks,
they still had mobile connection.
They were able to call.
So imagine, I’m in Taiwan, 8000 km away,
and I’m learning that my family right now is under Russian occupation.
And I know that they are raping people.
They are killing people just for fun.
They are destroying houses just because they have this mood today with no reason.
And I’m hearing my friends,
somebody trying to leave Ukraine,
somebody is trying to go to army and fight inside of Kyiv,
because my area where I grew up,
there were fights on the street with Russians already.
And my mom, she calls one of our relatives in Odessa.
Odessa is the city at the Black Sea.
In this relative family, they always were very much pro-Russian.
And my relative, my aunt, she tells my mom, who is already under occupation,
she tells my mom, “Oh, I don’t understand. Why do we have to fight with Russians?
They came to free us from Zelensky, from our politicians. Let them come.
Why do we need to fight with them? Don’t fight with them. What’s wrong with that?”
And my mom, she is already under occupation.
She hears how people being shot in the next village on the street.
A tank ran through the car with mother and daughter inside. A tank ran on the car to kill them in the village next to my mom’s.
And my mom is trying to tell her, like, this is what’s happening.
This is not propaganda. I know this. I hear it from my neighbors who are here.
They see it with their eyes. Some of them died.
But my relative, she says, “no, why do we need to fight with Russia?
I don’t believe it. This is all propaganda. Did you see it with your own eyes?”
She has enough courage to ask those questions to my mom.
英綺：
他們家是住在比較靠近基輔的前線，
所以他們家很快就被俄羅斯軍隊⋯⋯
那個區域很快就被俄軍佔領了。
所以這個故事對他來說，要分享出來是非常困難的，
因為那是那時候造成他壓力非常大的一段經歷。
第一個禮拜，通訊設備還算正常的時候，
他媽媽有打電話給他。
那他就是看著他家人們在鏡頭裡面一起躲在地下室裡面，
然後背景是有槍聲。
而他遠在台灣，什麼都做不了。
那時候他媽媽跟他妹妹他們都躲在那裡，
可以聽到俄羅斯軍隊在街上性侵別人、因為好玩而殺人。
他們帶著一種戲謔的心態，
如果有看過⋯⋯有一部電影(金陵十三釵)在講12個風塵女子，她們躲過了日軍的追殺，
但是當她們要回去她們的住處拿東西的時候，
被日軍性羞辱什麼的，基本上就是那樣的情境
俄羅斯軍隊甚至會覺得今天沒什麼事，那就放火燒掉一棟房子。
在這樣的狀況下，他媽媽被受困。
他媽媽有打電話給他們的親戚，她的妹妹
住在烏克蘭南部城市叫奧德薩（Odessa）的城市。
她打給她妹妹，跟她說她們現在的狀況是怎麼樣。
但她妹妹的回覆竟然是：
「我不懂欸，我不懂為什麼我們要跟俄羅斯開戰。他是來解放我們的，他是讓我們從澤倫斯基的手下獲得自由，我不懂為什麼大家要跟他們開戰。」
他媽媽試圖跟她解釋，
「不是，這是我現在親身正在經歷的事情。」
「我聽到鄰居被殺了，我聽到尖叫聲、性侵的尖叫聲。」
但她妹妹還是說：「沒有，你那個都是謠言，你現在就是在編故事，在騙我。」
他媽媽無法跟她溝通。
這種情況，其實跟我們台灣的某些狀況也很類似。
Rudi：
So the moment when my aunt, she finally realized what’s going on and the Russians do not care about anyone. Do you support Russia, or you support Ukraine, or you support Europe? Russians, they don’t care about that. They just want to take you, what you have, they want to take your life, your body, your children. When my aunt realized that is when Odessa started to be shelled by Russian missiles. When a few missiles landed next to her building, only then she realized, ‘Oh, why are they shooting at us? We’re here supporting Russia, why are they shooting at us?’ First time she asked this because my mom, she was still able to have a call with her. And my mom, after that she told her like, ‘Listen, if you still don’t understand, I don’t want you to be a part of my family anymore. I will not call you anymore. My life and the minutes I have right now to call someone, they are too precious to hear this bullshit.’ After some time, unfortunately, I lost contact with my family for three weeks because Russians, they destroyed mobile connection in the area where my family lived. So for three weeks, I had no idea what’s going on with my family. But I know that they almost have no food anymore. So three weeks, I had no contact. And finally, when I get a first message from a relative of my mom’s neighbor that they are still alive, I just get one very short message: ‘They are alive.’ This is the only thing I received from them in three weeks. Finally, when Russians were kicked out from Kyiv and they had to go back to Belarus, my family, they called me and they were on their way to leave. And my mom told me she also had a call with this aunt from Odessa. Finally, aunt, she realized everything. And finally, aunt understood why Russians are shooting at her as well. Finally, she realized that Russians don’t care who to kill. They just want to take your land, they just want to take your money, they want to take all resources you have. She finally realized. And right now, she woke up. And of course, right now she is trying to defend Ukraine in her own power. But I’m sorry, how long it takes you to realize that? And answering one of your questions today, why I came there to the protest. I really, really, really hope Taiwan will realize that way before China will come here. That you will not have these sleeping agents inside of your country telling, ‘Oh, let China come,’ and then they will end up with their family raped, killed, destroyed buildings, business ruined.
英綺：
前面有提到，他媽媽的妹妹，就是他阿姨，
其實是不相信他媽媽說的話，
覺得他媽媽被洗腦了。
但是他的阿姨是到什麼時候才真的清醒呢，
是當俄羅斯也開始攻擊他阿姨住的地方住的城市，
當有兩枚炸彈直接炸在她住的地方的旁邊時候。
她阿姨那個時候還在問說：「為什麼要攻擊我們？我是在這裡支持俄羅斯的耶！為什麼他要攻擊我們？」
到那個時候她的阿姨還是無法置信，她所愛的祖國怎麼會攻擊她這樣子。
那時候，在他媽媽為了躲避俄羅斯軍隊時，那時候還有繼續跟他阿姨溝通，但是那時候她就有烙下狠話，跟她說：
「如果你再繼續不能認清事實，那我不會再打電話給你了，我會跟你直接斷絕家人的關係。」
她阿姨住的地方被毀了以後，她終於相信，喔對俄羅斯他是不在乎你親俄或是親烏的，他不在乎你的立場，他就是要來掠奪你的資源，就是要毀了你住的地方，你住的家，毀了這裡的所有人。
俄羅斯軍隊他們做的第一件事情就是切斷對外的所有聯繫，所以Rudi那時候在他知道他們家住的區域被俄羅斯的軍隊佔領後，有三個星期他是沒有辦法獲得來自他們家人的消息。那三個星期他就是只能，也不知道他的家人是生是死。
因為他最後一次跟他們家人通話的時候，知道他們的糧食快要吃完了，一直到三個星期後終於有來自他媽媽的鄰居、親戚的一個很簡短的訊息就是他們還活著，但是因為通訊的限制，他們也沒辦法有更多的訊息。
他最後重新跟他媽媽聯繫上，是在她媽媽終於逃到另外一個叫Lviv的城市以後。
那他為什麼會分享這個故事，剛剛有很重要的一點，是因為他不希望台灣人犯下一樣的錯誤。
他不希望台灣人要等到中國人侵門踏戶出現在你家門口，他們不會管你是男生還是女生，準備對你性侵，準備殺了你，準備掠奪你的財產，準備毀掉你在這裡所有的商業，你的工作機會，
你才理解到中國是要侵略我們，他不希望一樣的事情發生在台灣，所以那一天419他為什麼會選擇跟我一起去遊行，就是有很大的一個原因是因為這個。
桌長：I’m sorry about to heard your story, but I’m very appreciative of you come and share your story, because I think this is really important to us to know whole the truth.
Because now it’s still a lots people they don’t believe CCP（中共） they want to kill us, or they want to do any bad things to us.
They believe if we said “ China is our country!” .
They will give us money and they will protect us….. something bull sh*t.
我很抱歉聽到你的故事，但我真的非常感謝你願意過來分享，
因為我覺得讓我們知道完整的真相，這件事真的很重要。
因為現在還有很多人不相信中共真的想要傷害我們、甚至殺了我們，
他們以為只要我們說一句「中國是我們的國家」，
中國就會給我們錢、會保護我們……但這些根本就是一堆鬼話。
英綺： It’s OK.
Rudi：
Let’s be honest.
If Taiwan decides to, okay, we want to be with China, and we want China to come here, we will not fight, just take Taiwan peacefully, no need to kill anyone.
Think of it: somebody comes here to take control of your own country, of your decisions.
That means they are stronger than you.
That means that they can do whatever they want here.
But as of now, you think they will just take only your country.
But if nobody can stop them, what stops China from taking your business?
What stops China from taking your wife?
What stops China from taking your son into their military?
Because nobody stopped them before. They are the strongest here.
They can come to your house and just shoot you, just only because you think democracy is an okay idea.
Maybe you like KMT(國民黨), which is fine, but still, you are choosing KMT(國民黨) inside of a democratic country.
So you have this mindset in your head. And this mindset of choosing something—this is the opposite of what China and Russia is.
For them, there is no choice, it’s only one.
They cannot allow anyone to be in this country who thinks that they have a choice.
Because it’s only one choice
英綺：
他說台灣有些人可能覺得，
沒關係啊，我們雙手歡迎讓中國進來，和平結束這一些紛紛擾擾。
可是他希望那些台灣人要想一想，
如果你讓中國這麼輕易地進來，
那代表什麼？代表中國就是在這裡是最強的，沒有其他權力、勢力可以阻止中國。
那中國他們會做什麼？中國他們可能會直接搶走你的生意圈
它可能不會經過你的同意就把你的妻子，把你的女兒帶走，因為他們喜歡。
他們可能會直接把你的兒子送上軍隊，也不會管他是不是已經到了適合的年齡，
是不是有什麼其他的問題，只要你是一個可以動的人，還可以扣板機，他就把你送進去。
他覺得有些人，沒關係，你想要支持國民黨這是你的選擇，但是這些人他會覺得我有選擇，我選了國民黨，但是在共產國家裡面，你是沒有選擇的，共產黨國家是不會讓你有第二個選擇的，在共產黨國家裡面是沒有選項，他要你做什麼你就只能做什麼。
這種我可以選擇的想法，會讓他們沒辦法認清共產黨獨裁的做事風格。
桌長：今天Rudi和英綺分享了他們自身的經驗，分享了他們自身的經驗以及他們自己的故事來提醒台灣人，我們必須正視現在台灣正在發生的危機。
在下一集呢，Rudi會再繼續跟我們分享以他自己自身的經驗，提醒現在台灣人可以為可能發生的戰爭或者是面對中共的威脅，我們應該要做什麼樣子的準備。
那麼我們就下集見囉！
Today, Rudi and Ying-chi shared their personal experiences and stories to remind the people of Taiwan that we must face the current crisis unfolding in our country.
In the next episode, Rudi will continue sharing from his own experiences, offering reflections on what Taiwan can do to prepare—whether for a possible war or in response to threats from the Chinese Communist Party.
See you in the next episode!
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